Suliman on Swissy and the Student Union

March 6, 2011
edits March 24

It’s been suggested to me that this is unwise, but I am offering another platform to Suliman, the persistent and inflammatory critic of the Justice for Megrahi campaign (JFM) and its members. He has quite a roster of rotating smears. Previously he's suggested Dr. Jim Swire was a racist, Robert Forrester an alcoholic, Professor Black a paid shill for Libya, and others. He also challenged me personally that I “will not touch” the important issue of Dr. Swire’s “dignity” in accepting Libya’s compensation money for his daughter’s death, despite believing them not guilty. I touched it, and smacked it down as irrelevant and mean-spirited name-blackening, and strangely, Suliman is the one no longer bringing up that accusation of … whatever exactly he was driving at.

And in trade, he of course did not and never will touch my challenge [same link above] to support with evidence just one central clue of Megrahi's (and thus Gaddafi's) guilt for the Lockerbie bombing.

Now that same "stolen money" is not a matter of dignity, but of employment, as a “whore” of Libya, of the kind to be “dealt with” after, and as, Gaddafi’s regime is being dealt with now! In a more recent missive, Suliman claims three JFM founding members have a “known financial connection with the Gaddafi regime.” Jim Swire and, he thinks, Father Pat Keegans are connected via “the Lockerbie compensations -- at least,” acceptance of which makes one “effectively a prepaid lobbyist.”


Unless you toe the government line and accept the verdict, as most do. Or just keep quiet and let that prevailing version unfold without protest. Taking the money then is fine with propagandist Suliman, as it keeps the Libyan regime as hated as possible. But if you look at the evidence for yourself, and find something different from what he imagines one should find (he can only imagine of course, refusing to look for himself), and dare to speak up about it, you obviously fit this bill:
Swire, Forrester and Co. [JFM] should be treated as undeclared agents of a foreign terrorist syndicate, until proven otherwise. … suspicious affiliations … serving the agenda of an international mass murderer …
The notion is obviously absurd. But the third cited example, and perhaps the entirety of the "suspicious affiliations," might have more to it, and it's to that I turn:
(3) Abdullah Swissy, JFM's Libyan co-founder, was a government sponsored student. How in the hell could he be financially independent of his financial sponsors?
Wow - nothing like student financial aid to secure one's services in furtherance of terrorism.

But he's more than just a Libyan student, of course. Abdullah Swissy has been described in his earlier JFM activities as “Former President of the Libyan Students' Union in Scotland and Libyan Student Affairs of the Libyan Students' Union, UK Branch.” (example) And of course, being Libyan, one must expect "student union" is but a euphemism for a terrorist front group. I guess (??).

Mr. Swissy was one of seven founding signatories of the Justice for Megrahi campaign in 2008, at the time seeking only the prisoner's return home on compassionate grounds. He has since un-signed for unspecified reasons, as the campaign shifted to re-examination of the case (something Suliman claims Gaddafi was not allowed to pursue). And apparently he is not always mentioned as a founding member in JFM literature, something Suliman takes as suspect.

It seems the alleged plot is this: Gaddafi decided to overturn the Megrahi verdict, and ordered a murderous minion to form a pressure group with some British dupes. He had the minion join the group, only to withdraw to not give the game away. But the brief lapse gave Suliman the sleuth his crucial clue - a freely-offered signature is his evidence for this secret plot.

Okay, that's not an amazing narrative, but I'll let it slide and humor the guy. Suliman's central problem seems to be less with Swissy himself as the group he's held an office within, also called the Jamahirya Student Union. Here are some of the clues Suliman has offered about this group, so far short on specifics:
...the same organization that produced the goons who were expelled from the UK for their role in the murder of a British policewoman on duty, protecting Libyan students in a demonstration against the extrajudicial killings by Swire and Black's partner organization in the pursuit of justice...

Would Black also join hands with the KKK in a campaign for racial equality? How about the American Nazi Party? Don't be offended, how could you? Before you do that, go contrast the public positions of the KKK and ANP vs. the unrepented JSU on the use of lynch mobs, violence and terrorism as means of doing justice.
And if Swire knew sh*t about human rights in Libya, he would not join hands with the Jamahiriya Student Union in the pursuit of what he calls "justice."
Do you need any clues about the "judicial" principles and record of your JFM partners, the Jamahiriya Student Union? Are those agents of Gaddafi exempt from the logic that Gaddafi's agents cannot operate independently?

So I gather from this that - allegedly - the JSU was killing someone around 1984, producing a protest at the Libyan embassy. The same group somehow "produced the goons" who shot policewoman Yvonne Fletcher at that protest. And the JSU promotes deadly violence as a replacement for justice, as well as violating human rights in general.

These are the serious allegations I'd need some evidence for. Seriously - that's heavy stuff to just state as fact without any support. So in answer to the question to Rolfe, yes, we could use some clues.

Now IF the Student Union has been involved in any such thing, at any time in any branch, the question still exists of Mr. Swissy's personal involvement or complicity in any of it up there in Scotland. And even if that can be shown (which I doubt), villain Swissy's ability to control and steer JFM after his departure from it hasn't been explained.

Nor has Suilman or anyone ruled out a non-Gaddafi origin for any of the well-founded questions aired about the verdict. Yet even without taking this basic step, in his fevered imagination, everyone who sees things differently is part of a vast conspiracy emanating right from Tripoli by unseen, perhaps magical avenues.

But there's more suspicious activity to prove it! Signs of a cover-up on our end!

(1) The Justice for Megrahi Campaign was co-founded by an officer of the Jamahiriya Student Union, who was also actively recruiting support in Gaddafi's media, on behalf of his Scottish comrades.
(2) JFM Co-Founder Abdullah Swissy, can also be found in Gaddafi's media calling upon "The Sons of the Great Revolution," to join his work for Megarhi.
(3) The JFM co-founder had disclosed on Gaddafi's media that he works in coordination with another Swissy, who is possibly a relative but definitely identified as the Consul General in Scotland.
(4) The JFM, through its co-founder Mr. Abdullah Swissy, was presenting itself in Gaddafi's media in a manner that is inconsistent with what they feed to the Western media as "basic tenets" of their campaign. Evidently, the JFM customizes both its message and its tenets to suit the local audience.
This part sounds detailed enough I'd credit it, but a link or something would still be handy to see the context. Points one and two seem to be the same thing - Swissy used unspecified Libyan media to promote the JFM cause. Wow. Point three is mildly interesting, not that his dad or uncle working in the diplomatic service there goes far towards making him a terrorist or pawn of anyone. But it could raise eyebrows. Point 4, and maybe 3, are perhaps clues why he left the group, but otherwise pretty irrelevant.

And then some other points:
(5) What is left of the JFM Committee and Mr. Larson are trying to sweep their association with the Jamahiriya Student Union under the rug, leaving it unmentioned even in the pretense of documenting their history. Current page, not cached. Oh my, this isn’t being kept very secret at all. In fact, Suliman might benefit from asking himself if he's exposing anything at all?
(6) And in his own contrivances to misinform the public, Mr. Larson doctored up his blog so as to erase his prior highlighting of Mr. Swissy's co-affiliation with JFM and the Jamahiriya Student Union, and he replaced it with an emphatically childish statement to the effect, "Look, Ma, no Libyans!"  
(7) Mr. Larson deliberately puckered his lips, went out of the way, to credit Mr. Swissy solely with a statement issued by the JFM campaign as a whole.  
(8) Mr. Larson also created a Category for Swissy in his blog, and it remains there now--but not for long--even though it points to no mention whatsoever of Swissy. All mentions of the JFM co-founder have been sanitized, but Mr. Larson forgot to burn all the evidence of his suck-up theater. How pathetic can a brown-nosed prospector be!
Clearly I contend "misinform the public," childish, and just about every other word of that. I do recall taking Swissy, Megrahi, all Libyans and those hired by them from the big quotes list to purify it to "people who at least presumably should have no ulterior motive to express such doubts" about the highly questionable verdict. The "quote" I had for Swissy prior to that was in fact a statment he only signed in agreement with rather than something he said personally. I'm sorry to have been so amazingly deceptive with that. Or that Suliman is so easily confused/deceived, or has such a need to keep acting like it. Terribly sorry for whichever of those it is.

The one post that had a stray "Swissy A" tag, honestly, I don't remember mentioning him in it. But he might have come up in that originally, before I removed him, for some stupid reason related to his un-signing. Can't put it back if I don't remember what it was. Tag removed, as Suliman predicted, but another post - this one - takes it over. Anyone who clicks it will be assailed with Suliman's accusations, introduced above and fleshed out below by he and I. We'll discuss:

a) the supposed track record of brutality of this group "partnered" with the Justice for Megrahi campaign,
b) in addition to but not in place of a), any evidence of a functional JSU/JFM partnership as opposed to a brief one-person membership cross-over.

How's that for burnt evidence swept under the rug?


Rolfe said...

Mmmm. Yvonne Fletcher. Now there's a completely different conspiracy theory. You might like to read up on that one some time.

Caustic Logic said...

Okay, Suliman ... It's not amazing, but to start I did a Google search. "Jamahiriya Student Organization" brings up only seven hits, five from you (four at the Case blog, one a re-posting by "Bunntamas," who claims - jokingly I'm sure - to be in love with you).

"Libyan Student Union" brings up many more hits. This is the same group, correct?

Among the JSU links is this:
Libyan abuses included the disappearance of one Ahmed Al-Tholathy of Benghazi, he “became active in the student union parallel to the Jamahiriya Student Union," and in "the group that addressed Colonel Gaddafi calling for radical changes in the Libyan policy." He was arrested without charge and disappeared.

"Parallel to" I gather means separate from, perhaps in competition with the JSU? What make you of it, Suliman?

The LSU hits yielded stories of a Libyan student in Australia held on pretty serious sex crimes charges, getting assistance from the union. Seems less than indicative of secret terrorist or lynch mob activity. Links unneeded - I'm sure you're familarand find it to be an important clue.

Aside from mundane scientific symposiums and student exchanges, here's an interesting story from recent days, on the LSU branch operating out of Lafayette, Indiana:
The Libyan Student Union took the streets of West Lafayette to raise awareness about protesters in the streets of Libya.
"People are being massacred by the thousands in my country. Already over a 1,000 confirmed killed and it is continuing. People are just realizing what is going on in Libya," said Purdue graduate and Libyan Ahmed Kadura.
He said this protest is about bringing awareness to the lives lost at the hands of Libyan Dictator Moammar Gadhafi. Kadura said Gadhafi and his regime have been in power for 42 years. He said now with neighboring countries ousting their leaders, the time for democracy has come for Libya.

The goon-generating scum! Perhaps late defectors, like Mustapha Abdel-Jalil, riding Gaddafi's terror machine until it seemed wiser to leap off it to safety?

Well, here's an older sample, a letter of July 1999, by a guy who headed the Dayton unit of the LSU, questioning one member's sudden turnaround from Saudi-influenced Jihadi thinker to a pimp for Tripoli in America, as cover for obtaining technology for the"oppressive" regime. This Jamahiriya Student Union officer felt this kid, likemany others, was thus co-opted into frustrating "the efforts of Libyan people to get rid of Qaddafi."

So I'm not just yet getting the sinister part with the murdering and co-opting and mindless support of the Gaddafi regime. I'm not saying it's not out there, but I haven't found it yet and, at the very least, I think Mr. Swissy's group has a much more mixed and benign record than you have portrayed it as.

Caustic Logic said...

Rolfe, I've chosen not to get into that one yet, but ... As I gather, the evidence Libyans shot her was this:
1) Shot while standing within sniper range of the embassy, and of a dozen other buildings
2) People were entirely willing to believe it was the Libyans
3) A box of the ammunition used was found left in the embassy after they were chased out and left nothing but the one clue to the crime they fervently denied and that makes no sense.

So pretty much it's down to #2 as I see it. But I admit I'm not fully versed. I suspect the precedent made framing them for Lockerbie seem completely do-able, from a UK perspective at least.

Rolfe said...

It's not something I'm intimately familiar with, but there appear to be inconsistencies in respect of the angle the bullet entered her body, suggesting the fatal shot wasn't fired from the Libyan embassy at all. I remember a TV documentary making quite a good case. It's mentioned in the wiki article on Yvonne Fletcher, but I recall reading a dedicated article which was quite persuasive.

On the other hand, I recall that the discredited arguments from the "Oswald didn't do it" camp in relation to JFK were assumptinos about the angle of the bullet which didn't actually stand up to scrutiny, so I'm not sure how much weight to put on it all.

Caustic Logic said...

Oops, above, the search phrase was given wrong, org. for union.

On bullet angles, keeping it short since we're OT, I don't think it'd work unless we could know just which way she was facing, and positioned, when hit. I suspect it's hard to prove shot origin either way, and so it all came down to prejudice.

Clearly whoever did it, Libyan or otherwise, had as a goal to create a diplomatic crisis with Libya.

Caustic Logic said...

To hear Suliman jabber about it, I half-suspected this "Student Union" would have some - at least alleged - record of terrirst-type activity. I din't think he'd just make it up.

But all the hits I found were general news or college-related. Not one that I noticed was on or whatever as a shady front.

Now, IF Suliman has any foundation for the rather serioous allegations, it coul just be a world exclusive, and I am offering him a platform to revolutionize the world's understnading with his proveleged information.

It's only been one day, but already he's hogging the higher profile of Prof. Black's blog (job assignment guidleines include maximizing viewers, don't they?), still pestering Rolfe to justify her supposed (?) "partnership" with this JSU and Swissy. So far his lame duck-out for violating guidelines in the interest of plausible cover or salvaig credibility, is that I have deleted spam comments in the past.

If that continues, I'd find it depressingly predictable. I recommend however, for those watching and ready to learn, that Suliman put the pettiness aside and tell the world what he knows. Actually explain it for once instead of just alluding to it as if it's explained elsewhere, cause it isn't.

Caustic Logic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Caustic Logic said...

Okay, still no help here from Suliman. He did however post some more comments at the Lockerbie Case. Here's his latest:
Larson further underscores his need to be re-educated, "But so far I don't see any evidence this particular student union is anywhere near as sinister as self-appointed expert Suliman paints it." __"I don't see," is often used to insinuate lack of evidence, but when it comes from an evidently blind person... Maybe, Mr. Larson, we should wait until you learn the difference between the "Libyan Student Union" and the "General Union of Students of The Great Jamahiriya." In the mean time, look up some information about "April 7th," and when you find nothing on your English search engine, be sure to declare that there never were any student killings, then ask the JFM co-founder to translate for you what his Scotland-Newcastle chapter of JSU said just last April, in celebration of the bloody events you so ignorantly dismiss. In addition to making you look like a fool, their statement makes reference to a "cleansing" of the Libyan universities, and it also speaks of Gaddafi disciples all around the world. On your blog, you say you deleted Swissy's name and affiliation "to purify" your list of quotes. Purify as in cleanse, I suppose. How good are you at chanting, disciple Larson? Forget that now, you do much hunting?_Here is the link to your allies, be sure to sink your teeth in what the Revolutionary Crew said:_'t forget to notice the domain name is LibyanSU, deigned just for brilliant people like you who can't read the site banner or the signature on the announcements. Make sure to come back and declare there is no evidence of anything called Jamahiriya Student Union. How pathetic! And you expect me to lower myself and debate you on your blog? __The education of Adam Larson will continue, as time permits, and after he tells us how Swissy translates the passage.

Caustic Logic said...

My response to the above:
Okay, broke down and did a rough translation of that state-sponsored group marking their version of the foruth of July here, and pro-government message. Even photos show people sitting down. and no lynchings or terrorism. They get/make some of the students sit through a patriotic speech from a government that has committed violence and that you deeply, deeply, deeply loathe.

It's the equivalent of a loony-left radical decrying the Boy Scouts as promoters of war, oppression, rape, and genocide. Follow the reasoning they used to get there, and it's twice as good as yours.

If I got the JSU and LSU mixed up, and they are separate groups, and Swissy's with the JSU as you say, that means the JFM website is wrong. I thought based on info Swissy gave them, and it says he's an officer with the LSU. If you could show that that is wrong, it would help your hemmorhaging credibility, and help me get past my ignorance.

Because seriously, I just don't know and don't have hours for research. It's not, as you say, deception and willful blindness. You've accused this group - or one of them - as supporters of terrorism, and for some reason, I can't just take your word.

Again, only you have made the connection with this JSU, or rather as you're now calling it ""General Union of Students of The Great Jamahiriya". I've seen no info on a group of that name at all. Are there three groups here, or is that the same as JSU? The internet, aside from you, is bereft of any mention of terrorism from either/any group, at least in the English-language reports I can read.

Make sure to come back and declare there is no evidence of anything called Jamahiriya Student Union.
Why? Did I do that before? I only said I don't see any sign of them shooting, lynching, or promoting such.

And still no sign that an officer in such a body briefly being a committee member of JFM leaves any real lasting taint, or opens any avenue of control by Tripoli. These seem to exist only in your imagination. And other's imaginations, I suppose. Not good enough for me.

Caustic Logic said...

Further responses
Suliman: Mr. Larson:__OK, now it seems you have learned something about JSU vs. Libyan Student Union. Is that right, or am I crediting you with too much?

Me: Yes, too much. I gather you think they're separate, and maybe it's so.

Your first homework for the day is to go and eat every remark you made about equating the two. For extra credit, you can consider the applicability of your jump-ship logic to leaders of the JSU. You believe Abdel Jalil is jumping ship, but that does not seem to cross your mind when you find something about some "Libyan Student Union" leader speaking against Gaddafi in Indiana. Yet, you have the gall to put logic in your name? So Gaddafi's ministers can jump ship, his diplomats, too, but not JSU officers, huh?

Re-read the article, dumb-ass. Right after mentioning Jalil, what do you see? And it's the LSU, presumed same as the sinister JSU, that shows signs (via its members) of breaking from Gaddafi for at least 12 years now. I've seen nothing on the JSU jumping ship, if that's separate. In fact, I find only seven hits total mentioning that group at all, as I said, five of them by you.

Now, it is time for your new lesson. and it is about what you call the "equivalent of July 4th." I advised you to consult Swissy on the translation, and if you had followed my advice, you would not be revealing more of your ignorance. What your JFM co-founders were celebrating, and what they call "Student Revolution" is a very different thing from what they call "The Great al-Fatih Revolution," and it is the latter that they treat--unjustifiably--as national independence day. Their al-Fatih revolution has an anniversary of Sept 1, 1969, and it was a military coup. Their so-called student revolution anniversary was April 7th, 1976, and their annual student murders continued thereafter for years. I'm not sure you could do the arithmetic, but the numbers say your partners were formed about 6.5 years after their version of national independence day. So where did you get the equivalence of April 7th to July 4th? I can tell you the answer to that one, if you have trouble locating parts of your own body.__

Wow, you got me. I don't know my dates and what exactly they were marking. Didn't read close enough, sorry. So JFM, via its "founders," was praising the murder of dissident students in your 2+2+?? = 412 way of thinking, huh? That's real neat.

What else do you see in common with July 4th? I did not know that July 4th marks an occasion when US students, on orders of a US ruler in office for 6.5 years, went on a "cleansing campaign" of US universities from non-revolutionary students. But, apparently, you do. I did not know that George Washington, after 6.5 years in office, went to tribal leaders and asked them to storm the university and trample upon other US students. But you do, apparently, and I wish you would expand a little more on your continuing campaign of fumbles, contrivances, and now blatant lies.__Looking forward to your next lesson? I am guessing it will cover some important events, names of April 7th victims of the JSU, and a few pointers on the difference between being expelled for something and being convicted of it. Don't worry about your clutter because it is devoid of any substance and presents no resistance to the foot that's feeding you.

Wow, when you catch me on something, you really just go off on it, don't you?

So again, who here can help me see evidence that the LSU and JSU are different, that the JSU supports terrorism and mob violence etc. (not just refusing to denounce past violence by the government that sponsors them). And any evidence of a functional partnership between JFM and this sinister JSU. If possible, Suliman, we could use actual evidence and not just mental gymnastics and extreme hyperbole. We've all had enough of those.

Caustic Logic said...

Oops, the jump-ship musing re: LSU is in my first comment, not the article.

Caustic Logic said...

Still no word from Suli on my alleged mix-up betwixt the JSU and LSU. He might be right, but won't help, insisting I should learn Arabic and get beyond the English-language hits.

Well, I used Google translate to iron out the words for Studet = طالب
Union = الاتحاد
and Jamahiriya = جماهيرية.

Putting them together I got a lot of hits. One has an official-looking banner with a picture of Gaddafi and labeled Libyan Student Union.

When I translate back the Arabic words for JSU above, it gives me Libyan Student union. So that's not helping, making it seem like (and it might be) the same thing. But I'm conflating, Suli charges, surely with the worst of deception in mind!

جماهيرية translates Jamahirya
جماهيرية translates Libyan.

I am not dropping everything to take a one-year crash course in Arabic to sort this out. I suspect, as everything else suggests, that Suli is just a particularly nasty troll, appointed by self or others to cause drama, distraction, and if possible discreditation to the JFM campaign.